“你没有界线”——尹吉男&滕菲的一次聊天（2011-09-27）
滕菲：上学的时候，应该是八几年，我记得有一次你跟我说，现在你这样的普通话特时髦，好多人开始学这个。
尹吉男：对，带一点南方腔。
滕菲：当时我还没感觉，但过了一段时间我就感觉到了，有的人故意这么说。
尹吉男：过去是普通话的概念。普通话就是广播里的声音，广播里的声音就是一个最正经的，最权威的声音。但是，它逐渐被解构了。主持人的声音发生变化，特别电台里面主持娱乐节目有好多带口音的声音。这样就等于把方言合法化了。它是怎么开始的呢？改革开放以后，先是香港话开始出现了。以前没有人特意来说这个，但后来变成潮流了，越来越多的人来讲这些方言。这也意味着不再是一个标准，标准多元了，用哪一种方言都可以表达。
滕菲：反正你感觉到混在里头说不好也没关系。我就想起你还跟我说过这个，现在还真是这么回事。这个我有印象，因为我感觉到那种变化了。原来要说话发言，语言不是很准的话，还是觉得有点不大合适，不好意思。后来就觉得挺如鱼得水，因为大家有的还故意这么说。口音我一辈子就改不了，特别顽固。
“为什么版画系出的当代艺术家多”
滕菲：我本科毕业的时候做的是水印木刻。 尝试了好多传统上没有用过的方法。当时我记得伍必端先生觉得挺有意思的，跟他们的不一样，他说你什么时候来一趟，我们聊一聊，我就特懒。当时弄的那个木刻，也是有一定影响的。
尹吉男： 为什么版画系出的当代艺术家多？因为它有这种制作性。这个制作性，就包含了现代性在里面，因为不是完全速写的。因为艺术有两种，一种是速写，就是马上就抒发出来；还有一种就是制作，一遍一遍制作出来。这个就跟现代艺术的方式有关系。
现代艺术方式两个，一个是你要转换，把你的想法、观念从一个方式转到另外一个方式。一个是你要制作，要制作出来，而不是用速写的方式来做。刘小东是比较典型的速写方式。他的画很快，几天就画出来了。他把最初的感觉保留在画面上，那种生动、情绪都在画里面。但大多数人是制作的，包括像方力均、张晓刚都是制作性特别强的。他们是一遍一遍地制作，那个东西没有速写性。你看画面，在笔触上看不到情绪，只是一个结构，一个图像。是不一样的东西。
我想说，你回头做的话，你也可能是利用两种制作性的训练，版画和设计，再来做一个某种更自由的东西，也可能会形成另外一个什么东西。我是这样想。
“你跟别的人是不一样的”
滕菲：跟你交流太少了。你可能也就看过我2006年的那个小展览，为我自己做的东西。对吧？
尹吉男：对。87年你毕业的那个时候，我还没有太关注当代艺术。我写第一篇评论是88年，吕胜中和徐冰的展览。最早有印象的作品，是你已经从德国回来了，有一些展览，也做一些首饰。
滕菲：还没有和你正面聊过。
尹吉男：你的作品给我的感觉是出身不一样。原来做设计的，怎么说呢，可能设计性特别强。但是，你做这个，有设计性，但设计性是隐藏在背后，不是那么粗浅。一看就是艺术家做的，跟设计师做的有区别。有的东西你会更多地强调绘画性。更多考虑它不是仅仅戴在手上的效果，甚至把它变成很独立的东西来看待，有点像一个作品一样。可能设计师只考虑，手上是什么样的感觉，这个首饰是什么东西。作品有这样的差别。
还有，你对材质本身比较重视。用什么样的材质和什么结合是你注重的。以前我不太注重材质。90年代初的时候，我跟隋建国聊天，说到这个东西时，对我有触动。你的作品突显这个，强调材质本身的这个质感。这个质感本身是可以说话的。这也是你和别人的一个比较。
另外，你做的首饰又是立体的平面。从不同角度上来看，这个东西既可以戴在手上，又可以独立地在一个空间里放置，也可以放置到展厅里，是多层考虑。把它当成艺术品来对待，不是一个工艺品，有这样一个方式。我那时候就想，作为艺术家来做这样一个展示，把它作为一个艺术品来对待，可能会呈现这样一种效果。但是我当时也在想，如果要回头来做艺术，又会是什么样？
因为我认识一个陶艺家叫白明。他的东西我特别喜欢。看了那个东西就想拥有，是真的喜欢。但是他总是拿他的画给我看。我就跟他讲，你画画跟陶艺比差得非常远。你那个东西是不经意做得特别好，达到巅峰状态。但我不反对你画，为什么？你画画的自由状态，会把它画到那个陶艺里去。这是其他陶艺家没有的资源。因为他是学工艺出身的。像他这样，他之所以做得好是因为他也有一些自由表达的仙气，不断从绘画里面找一些感觉。纯粹的陶艺家的作品你看了，看着很气派，做得也很好看，但是总觉得憋闷，没有一种通透的，打开的东西。所以这是一个例子，就是你跟别的人是不一样的。我觉得你也有一种东西，是别人所没有的。
“每一种表达都有它的职能”
“Every kind of expression has its own function.”
滕菲：的确也是你刚才说的。我这个背景是从艺术来的，不是说从那个设计的状态里。从我个人的东西来说，更多还是借助首饰这么一个切入点，在艺术实践的范畴里躲着。为什么有时候说特纠结呢？就是你想做自己东西的时候，你要保持相对的自由；但当你要做教学的时候，肯定要考虑设计的需求，因为毕竟是在设计学院。所以我有时候就老在转换这种角色。反正做得也挺有意思，感觉这里面可做的东西特别多。
尹吉男：其实就跟我自己写作一样。写作当中可能会有两种文体。一种文体可能就是写规范的论文。论文能够表达自己吗？能。但它是非常专业化的一种学术。不过，这个并不是全部。你肯定有很多想法是在这样的模式里面不能实现的。那么你就可以写随笔。别人叫它评论。我一直叫随笔。只不过这个随笔是拿一些作品当做一个材料来进行写作的。它的文体模式和论文完全不一样。两种东西都是我写的，并不能说这个是我写的，那个不是我写的。
我是觉得用一种方式只能表达一部分，不要奢望这一种方式把一切都表达了。我不能说把它们对调。或者只用一种。如果我指定一种方式表达全部，结果是使每一种表达都不纯粹。所以是有很多方式的。要多种渠道表达。每一种表达都有它的职能，都会很纯粹。加起来你的灵感就更强大，而不是一个片状的。你看鲁迅又写文学史，又写政论，又写小说。小说从中篇到短篇都写。还写杂文、散文，还坚持数十年雷打不动写日记，他几乎能把我们能想象到的文本都占全了。他全方位地表达自己，而且发现每一个自己都是一个侧面。
你没有界线，版画也做，油画也做，雕塑也做，几乎没有不做的东西，没有限制，就是艺术家。
“生活状态本身就非常不确定”
滕菲：到了这个阶段了，按说是各方面都比较纯粹了。现在如果说最在意的，你会最在意什么呢？
尹吉男：我觉得还是思想自由的这种精妙。你能够把你想的东西，及时、顺利、有效地表达出来。这个是最重要的。到这个年龄段，只能说比以前好像能够更自由一些。第一我没有说规定我算哪个学科的，学科是自由的。此外，所有的访谈，我特不愿意听一个词，就是你作为什么什么的，你怎么样怎么样。这个词我特别不喜欢，因为我什么都不作为，我就是这样的一个状态。只是觉得，你能够去自由地思想和表达。只要他的这种模式对你有一种限制的话，你就会不舒服，你就要反抗。而且我特别不喜欢普遍性的东西。
滕菲：这点还真是。你刚才说到的好多东西，我会有同感，我也想说这个肯定挺限制的，受不了。还有就像你说的，也不喜欢从众的那个东西。一看大家都那样，我就赶紧撤离。一种条件反射，你就不愿意在那个状态下。我们生日同天，这个东西看来还是有点关系的。
尹吉男：人都有这样的关系。因为我们都属于水瓶座的。他们说水瓶座本身就是追求自由，不愿有限制，不愿意有一个束缚的东西。
滕菲：我学生也说我。水瓶座的人，不知道他在想什么的。
尹吉男：对，吕胜中写我，他第一句话就是，他是让人看不准的人。
滕菲：这种时代，这个状态，对现在的艺术，你有一个什么样的自己的看法？
尹吉男：总体来讲，艺术现在逐渐逐渐开始从价值观范畴里面游离出来了。它不代表一种价值判断。它只是说带有一个阶段性的，或者是一种临时性的。你的一个想法，或者你的一个情绪，仅此而已。当代艺术跟人文学科的关系开始变得不像过去了，过去基本上没有办法来剥离。人文学科是价值观的。现在艺术变成临时性的东西，临时性的一个感触，一个想法，一个做法，而不是代表一种价值。这是一个特别大的变化。
从现代主义到后现代这个时期变化特别快，一个人有很多变化，而且有很多的措施，有不同表达，表达的领域也是五花八门。有时候我们怀疑是不是有统一的人。也不存在分离不分离，他就表达了不同时期特定的一个想法，一个特定想法不见得就是跟你这个人有什么关系，不需要有联系。
滕菲：其实这么说起来，现在这种生活状态本身实际上就非常不确定。
（注：因篇幅所限，这里刊出的只是这一次交流的节选。----蒋岳红 整理）
“No Limitations”
---- A Conversation between Yin Ji’nan and Teng Fei（2011-09-27）
Teng Fei: When I was in school in the 1980s, you once told me my way of pronunciation was in fashion, and more people were beginning to talk that way.
Yin Jinan: Yes, with a little southern accent.
Teng Fei: I didn’t realize it at that time, but some time later I found some people speaking mandarin this way purposedly.
Yin Jinan: Our concepts of “Mandarin” have changed. Mandarin was the voice on the radio, and was considered the most standard and authoritative voice. But this idea has changed over years. Hosts’ voices have changed. They speak Mandarin with accents, especially those entertainment hosts on radio stations. It has been a slow process. In other words, dialects have become accepted. But how did this begin? After reform and opening, Hong Kong dialects began to be heard. People never used to want to speak that way, but it began to get popular, and many people began to speak with an accent. It meant that Mandarin was not the absolute standard, and ideas could be expressed with any accent or dialect.
Teng Fei: And it doesn’t matter if you can’t speak any particular dialect that well. I was just thinking of what you had told me, and it is absolutely the case now. I have felt this change. In the past, if you couldn’t speak good Mandarin it was really embarrassing. But now you feel good speaking with some accent, because more and more people speak this way purposedly. I will never be able to change my own accent.
“Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background?”
Teng Fei: My major in university was woodprints. I tried a lot of new, non-traditional methods, and Mr. Wu Biduan was interested in what I was making, and said they were very special. He told me to come to his place to talk about it, but I was too lazy to go. But those woodprints influenced my later work.
Yin Jinan: Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background? It’s because of the productive nature of printmaking. This productive nature is not just drawing, so it retains a contemporary feel. Art has two types: one is drawing, expressing ideas directly; another is production, producing things over and over again. In this way it is related to contemporary art’s methods.
There are two kinds of contemporary art. One is transformation-- transforming your ideas and concepts to something different. The other is production—creating something, not just drawing literally. Liu Xiaodong uses a typical drawing method. He paints fast and can finish one piece in a few days. He retains the original feelings on the canvas, and tucks the vividness and emotion into the painting. But most contemporary works use production, for example Fang Lijun and Zhang Xiaogang. They produce over and over again, but not literal drawings. When you look at the canvas, you do not feel emotions in the brushwork, but see only the structure and the image. It is different.
I would say, if you were to do it again, you might utilize two different kinds of production,printmaking and design, to make your works even freer or set your works in a different direction.
“You have something others do not have”
Teng Fei: I haven’t spoken with you for a while. I think you might have seen my last small exhibition in 2006, what I made pieces for myself. Is that right?
Yin Jinan: Yes. At the time when you graduated in 1987, I wasn’t paying much attention to contemporary art. I wrote my first art review in 1988, about the exhibition of Lv Shengzhong and Xu Bing. By that time when I noticed your work, you had already come back from abroad .You had some exhibitions,including your art jewelry.
Teng Fei: I hadn’t spoken to you about my work.
Yin Jinan: Your work gives me a feeling of a departure. Usually, a ‘designer’ will emphasize the ‘design’ of their work, but with you, the design sense is hiding behind the pieces themselves, less obvious. Looking at your works, one can tell they are made by an artist, not a designer. We can see more “picturesqueness” in your work .You don’t only see jewelry as something to complement their bodies, but regard it as an independent thing, a piece of art. Maybe designers only think about the feeling of the jewelry on their hand and what it is. That is the difference.
Also, you attach a lot of importance to materials, and to which kinds of materials can be matched together. I never paid much attention to materials before, but after a chat with Sui Jianguo in the 90’s, the significance of materials hit me. You emphasize the material itself, whose texture or meaning itself can say something.This is a contrast to others.
Your jewelry is also very three-dimensional. Seen from different perspectives, it could be worn on hands, or independently put in a space, or exhibited in an exhibition hall. It should be regarded as artwork, not a handicraft. I think for something to be made by an artist and exhibited and regarded as artwork, it should have this kind of effect. But I also wonder what would it be if you were returning to make artwork?
I know a ceramicist named Bai Ming, and I like his works very much. When I see his works, I want to own them. But he always brings out his paintings to show me, and I tell him, “Your paintings are a far cry from your ceramics. Your ceramics are so casually exquisite. But I have no objection to your painting, either, because your free style can influence your ceramics. That’s something other ceramicists do not have.” He is a born craftsman, finding feeling from free expression and his painting. True ceramicists have impressive styles and make beautiful works, but their works often make people feel oppressive without something transparent,something open. His works are different from others’. He has something that others do not have.I think you are of the same kind , you also have something others do not have. Your practice is idiographic and you are inimitable.
“Every kind of expression has its own function.”
Teng Fei: What you said just now is absolutely true. My method of creation comes from art, not a place of design. In terms of my personal expression, most of it is hiding behind the art, and I rely on jewelry as an access point. When I want to make something, I need to maintain absolute freedom. When you are teaching, you have to keep the design in mind, because after all, it is design you are teaching. I’m always transforming the roles of designer and artist. In any case, I find it interesting, and I feel there’s a lot to do in there.
Yin Jinan: It’s just like my taste of writing. I think there are two styles in writing. One is used to write a standard thesis. Can you express yourself through a thesis? The answer is “yes”, but only in a very professional, academic way. However, you can’t entirely express yourself, as there are a lot of ideas that can’t be put in this kind of writing. You can also write essays—some people may call them reviews, but I always call them essays. This essay is writing based on artwork. Its literary style is completely different from a thesis. I write these two kinds of articles, but you can’t say I only write one and not the other.
Using only one type of writing can only express some things，not everything. I can’t say I can swap them. Or I could designate one way to express everything, but not every expression is pure. So there are many ways and channels to express things and each expression has its own pure function. Put together, you get powerful insight, not as scattered perspective. Lu Xun for example, he wrote not only literary history and political commentary, but also novels. He wrote prose and essays, along with keeping a journal for several decades. He wrote in every imaginable literary style. He expressed himself in all directions and he found that each was a side of himself.
You yourself also have no limits. You make prints, oil paintings and sculptures. You make almost everything. You are an artist.
“Our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain”
Teng Fei: One might say, at this stage, you should be pure in thought, and see clearly about everything. What would you say is the most important thing in life, at this stage?
Yin Jinan: Free thought. A smooth expression of everything imaginable. This is the most important thing.I am freer than before. First, subjects are free, so I don’t belong to any specific subject. In conversations, I hate hearing “you are a…”or “you are like…” I hate it because I’m not any of those things, I just am what I am. Just as long as I can freely think and express. Once you are limited by a kind of label, you will resist it. I especially don’t like standard of universal things.
Teng Fei: That’s true, what you just said. I also can’t stand this limitation. Just like you said, I always try to stay away from the majority. As soon as something becomes popular, I withdraw from it. It’s a conditioned response. Inasmuch as our birth date, we do have a strong resemblance between us.
Yin Jinan: We are all in connection with this. It’s because we both are Aquarians. They say Aquarians pursue freedom, and they hate limitations and restrictions.
Teng Fei: A student of mine also said it is very hard to know what Aquarians are thinking.
Yin Jinan: Yes, Lv Shengzhong’s comment about me was “You can’t put him in any right place.”
Teng Fei: What is your opinion on the current state of art in this era?
Yin Jinan: In general, art is gradually detaching from categories of values. It doesn’t represent a value judgment. We can say it only represents one’s temporary or momentary ideas and feelings. In the past, contemporary art and humanities were very difficult to separate, but now their relationship has loosened. Humanities is based on values. But now art has become a temporal thing: a temporary sensation, idea or method, but not a representation of values. This is a big change.
In the rapid change from modernism to post-modernism, a man can change a lot. He may move in different directions and express his ideas in a multitude of ways. We may wonder if he is really one man. It doesn’t matter whether he is one or many; he is expressing ideas that belong to specific moments in time, and those ideas may not have—and have no need of—any connection with him or with each other.
Teng Fei: Speaking of this, our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain.
Ps:This is an extract from a longer conversation; edited by Jiang Yuehong