Michael Findlay (Director of acquavella gallery )
& Zeng Fanzhi
Acquavella 画廊馆长 与 曾梵志 对话
这些风景的作品看起来非常神秘。这是你见到的真实风景吗？
不是，是一种妙悟的体验，不是平常的一般认识，也不是理性认识。妙悟是一种显现、揭示，但这一揭示并不是简单地将世界本身彰显出来，而是一种创造，所带来的是一个新颖的世界。每当感到这个新颖的世界似曾相识，既熟悉又陌生，它就潜藏在自己生命的深层。所以，从这个意义上讲，妙悟中的显现是一种揭示，它只不过将自我生命中本来具有的内容显露出来，它是熟悉的；换言之，妙悟中显现的世界又是陌生的，它是令人惊奇的，所以在这个意义上，妙悟又是一种发现。
The panoramic landscapes seem mysterious. Do you see them this way? Is there a narrative?
They are not real landscape. They are rather about an experience of miao wu (marvelous revelation). Miao wu does not fall into the common categories of cognitive process. Neither has it anything to do with Reason. Miao wu is a kind of revelation. Instead of making something obvious Miao wu brought about an unmarked world, which underlies the deep strata of life, both novel and familiar. In this respect, the miao wu type of revelation concerns a disclosure of what is already embedded in the artistic ego – the revealed world is there, but it is unfamiliar and amazing. Miao wu constitutes a restless journey of discovery.
是什么给了你灵感？你亲眼所见的东西还是你的感觉？
我的创作灵感来自各个方面。比如童年时的记忆、我的人生经历，包括声音、气味。这些都能给我带来种种画面，这些体验是一种妙悟的体验，是两种不同的境界——物境和悟境。悟前是物，悟后还是物，并非导入玄虚的冥想，仍然有具体的物象显现。但悟前之物虽然也为我眼中所见，但心与物了不相类，物是物，我是我，物是具体的勾起我的欲望和繁复意念的物，我是具有强烈意念并要将这一意念强加于物的我，物和我是客观和主观的关系。
What inspires you more--what you see or what you feel?
My inspiration comes from every aspects of life, such as my childhood memory, my life experience as well as their sounds and smells. They made for me a variety of mental images. These experiences are kind of Miao wu experience, which consists of two different conditions – the “objecthood” of the subject matter and the “equilibrium” of an artistic ego. The “objecthood” comes both before and after the “equilibrium.” The “equilibrium” thus ends up being less abstract contemplations than tangible images. Although a subject could throw its projection onto the artistic ego it nonetheless becomes the later – the artistic ego and the subject matter are distinct from each other. The subject is merely a trigger for the desires and calculations of the ego. It can only prefect itself through the imposition of the strong artistic ego upon the subject. The subject and the artistic ego belong to two different realms of the external and of the internal.
在最近的十年当中，你的风格最大的改变是什么？
在这十年中，我越来越重视内心情感的表达。随着情绪的波动可以创作出不同的作品。
What has been the biggest change in your work over the last ten years?
In the recent decade I became increasingly relying on an introspective representation. My sentimental fluctuation leads to the periodical difference among my works.
是否有什么特别的历史作品对你的发展起到积极或挑战的影响吗？
我一直抱着学习的态度研究美术史中大师的重要作品，从Jan Van Eyck到Pablo Picasso，在不同的年龄阶段喜欢的艺术家不同。
Have any particular historical works of art motivated or challenged your development?
I have been consistently studying masters’ pieces that are art historically important. I embraced different masters, ranging from Jan Van Eyck to Pablo Picasso, in varied periods of my life.
你觉得在中国传统绘画和西方绘画的技艺上有什么冲突吗？作品所表达的意境或作品的灵魂方面呢？
北宋苏轼曾有诗到：“论画以形似，见于儿童邻。作诗必此诗，定非知诗人。”他的意思是说，如果画画只能画得像，这跟小孩子的水平差不多。画要画出神。在中国的造型艺术中，有“不似似之”这样一个原则。太似则呆滞，不似为欺人，妙在似与不似之间，既不具象，又不抽象，徘徊于有无之间，斟酌于形神之际。关键并不在像与不像上，而在如何对待“形”的问题上，以神统形，以意融形，形神结合，乃直神超形越，这是一个艺术家所应该做的。“不求明月尽，自有暗香来。”这联古诗道出了中国艺术追求超越于形似之外的神韵的秘密。中国传统绘画用纸、毛笔、墨水，运用淡淡的墨水、线条来表现文人的心中的精神世界，追求的是意境，讲究笔墨以及对艺术家人格的要求等等。
西方绘画是用 布 、刀、油、油画颜色，用明暗、光影、透视、解剖来表现，具有工匠气。
Do you see any conflict between the different traditions of Chinese painting and Western art in technique, meaning or spirit?
Su Shi, the well-known poet of the eleventh century, states that “only children would judge a painting with its faithfulness to nature; one who is only able to compose the poem must not be a real poet.” He means that if a painting becomes a dull duplication of reality it would be considered only as primitive. A painting has to capture the essence of its topic. A principle central to Chinese art is about the uncertain status of “likeness of form(s).” If a representation gets too close to its prototype it may look rigid. On the contrary, if it goes too distanced from its life model it becomes a fake. The perfection swings, then, between the “like” and the “not-like,” the abstract and the concrete, the full and the empty. The key issue is not so much about the “like”-“not-like” as about how to approach the issue of “formation.” It is the responsibility of an artist to regulate the form with his spirit and to have the meanings embodied in the form, to an extent that the spirit and the form are perfectly combined and complement each other. “Should you not be lavish in the moonlight but rather enjoy the subtle fragrance?” The verse tells the secret of classical Chinese art that strives for a spirit to transcend its physical constraints. The traditional Chinese painting employs only very basic materials and devices, such as light paper, soft brushes, plain ink and simplistic lines, for an extraordinarily rich mindscape of literati. In comparison, Western painting reveals strong curiosities about the craftsmanship. It relies on heavy canvas, metal knives, opaque oil paints and elaborated palettes for spectacular Chiaroscuro type of contrasts, vivid perspectives and analytic knowledge.
现在你已经被归为中国当代艺术顶极艺术家之一了。对你来说，你对其他人的作品有兴趣吗？你是否觉得自己是民族发展、国家发展或一个时代进程中的一部分？
比较关注作品，但不作任何评价。
我是60年代出生的，亲身经历了中国每一个十年的变化，我更关注作为普通的人的生存体验，在我的创作中现代人思想与情感的自然流露，或许比那些刻意的中国符号和中国方式更重要。
You have been grouped with Chinese contemporary figurative artists. Do you feel any affinity with their work? Do you consider yourself part of an ethnic, national or generational Movement?
I am interested in their works, but tend not to be judgmental.
I was born in the 1960s and witnessed the change of the country in each crucial decade. I am more concerned with ordinary people’s life experiences. In my works, the natural revelation of contemporary thoughts and sentiments is far more important than those articulated Chinese icons and iconographies.
一些艺术家喜欢独自工作，而其他艺术家喜欢在一个相对热闹的工作室和他的助手们一起工作。那么你自己有什么偏好吗？
比较习惯独自一人边听音乐边工作。
Some artists enjoy working alone, others in a busy studio with assistants. What is your ideal work environment?
I got used to working alone while listening to music.
在中国，你已经是你这个时代非常优秀的艺术家了。你的作品被世界上很多大的美术馆和大收藏家收藏。在拍卖中，你的作品又以非常非常高的价格出售。那么，你自己怎样来度量你自己的成功呢？在未来的十年中，你将要得到什么样的成功呢？
关于作品在拍卖中创造的高价，是完全出乎我的意料的。还在大学创作的时候，并不知道我的作品还可以卖。当时，只是根据自己内心的感受、需要来创作，把绘画当成了生活的一部分。
在未来，不太希望人们过多关注我的作品的价格，而是希望我的作品被越来越多人所理解。希望我的作品能在不同的国家、民族中产生共鸣，并且要经得起时间的考验。
You are now one of the pre-eminent artists of your generation in China , your work is bought by major museums and collectors world-wide and has sold for extremely high prices at auction. How do you measure success for yourself and what type of success would you like to achieve in the next ten years?
The auction records were out of my expectation. I was not even aware that my works are marketable in my college. At the time I only wished to paint with my heart. Painting is part of my life.
In future, I hope that people will not be so concerned with the price of my work as with its interpretations. I wish that my works would be able to make senses to different nations and people. And their influences would be endurable.
过去，你曾经画过毛泽东和一些西方伟人的画像，来展现亚洲和西方的融合。那你认为你的这套作品有任何政治和／或文化的批判吗？
作为一个中国艺术家，社会主义的思想教育不仅体现在我们的生活中同时也深深的影响了我们的艺术创作。我们是接受社会主义思想教育成长下的一代新人，社会主义现实主义的艺术方式是我们自我表达的开始，也是我们展望艺术未来的起点。这是一个无法回避的事实。在历史的变革和艺术的表达之中，我们选择的是直面社会的现实和现实所赋予我们的感受。这是我们所受的教育的根本，也是我们超越我们所受的教育的武器。正是中国特殊的社会背景与意识形态丰富了艺术家的创作。越来越多的艺术家关注社会、关注政治方面的问题；另一部分艺术家则更关注作为普通的人的生存体验。也许前者更能提示一个“中国”或者“中国当代艺术”的存在，但对于我自己的作品来说，我更倾向于后者，更关注人的生存体验。
In the past you have painted images of Mao Zedong and your prototypical "man" image appears to allude to a fusion of Asian and Western stereotypes. Do you see your work as political and/or cultural critique?
As a Chinese artist, the socialist discourse and education is an intrinsic part of our life. It has made a deep impact on our artistic endeavors. The socialist realist way of doing art unfolds our journey as young artists. Meanwhile it is also a departing point for our future pursuits. This is a matter of fact and should not be bypassed. Regarding historic reforms and artistic expressions, we choose to face the reality and be true to our feelings that the reality brought about. This concerns both our primary trainings and a potential way to get out of it. The unique social circumstances and ideologies enrich the artistic spectrum of contemporary China. While more and more artists pay attentions to societal and political issues, there are also some people who are more concerned with the life experiences of ordinary persons. The former may help remind the observers of the existence of a “Chinese Art,” or “Chinese Contemporary Art,” as in their capital forms. But I am certainly prone to the latter. I have a deep concern with the substantial life experiences of ordinary people.
如果让你选择在除了当今这个时期，选择在历史中任何一个时期、任何一个国家，你会选择在什么地方创作你的作品？
我会选择在20世纪初的法国，与保罗塞尚一起画静物。
If you could choose to be an artist working in any milieu in any country at any period in history other than today, what would that milieu be?
I would like to find myself in the early 20th century France, sitting with Paul Cezanne, doing still life stuff with him.